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the_Scorpion
Post : 12 lip 2007 11:30
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Kapral
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olddog

yeah, there's dozens of terms for this kind of mixture-english.

i used to write a paper about something in linguistics and one of the ressource books was labelling it "euro-english" as the kind of english used by non-natives to communicate with other non-natives.
"englishes" is another term used for this

rules and style are mostly neglected in favor of "understanding" and ease of use. the term they used in that context was, if i remember correctly, "intellegibility" (i remember this cuz' it's a bit difficult to say for me)

i gotta admit that's what i write in those forums and emails and if i say that it works efficiently with people from many places, then this is a very cool thing.
on the other hand, i share poper's approach on AE: it doesn't sound so nice all the time. It's like the northern german idiom where you get the feeling that people try to talk without opening their teeth :D

there's two points of view: descriptivists and prescriptivists.

for the latter, what i'm writing here isn't english, it's just some substandard bastardisation of the great english language (you could almost hear sidney nettleson talking)

for the former, they say that any existing language and languages exist as such and that, as popers states, change has always been part of the languge. of course, this change can be much faster in london than maybe in the outback because of the demographic.

but i think linguists were (and maybe are still) debating about this topic, depending on the point of view, with more vigour (does that have an "ou"?) or less.


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Popers
Post : 12 lip 2007 12:19
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the_Scorpion pisze:
vigour (does that have an "ou"?

AE ownzzz you! :D BE - vigour AE - vigor <which is a nice example of AE simplification in comparison to BE>

I feel that English is evolving into some universal language which by XXII centure will have become a world-language. It has already achieved a "lingua franca" status . The status "esperanto" <artificial ,auxiliary language developed by Zamenhof> never reached , despite many efforts. The only way is to protect the original language , so there could exist two versions parallelly. There is only one way "Globish" could be stopped.It could be only replaced by some other language <which would happen if USA lost its status. not probable in next 100 years IMHO> as it happened a couple of times in the world's history <Latin , French>.

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the_Scorpion
Post : 12 lip 2007 19:36
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Kapral
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the good thing is i still wrote vigour while vigor wouldn't have been much wrong either :lol:

my pick for the next Globish language would be latin again. A big number of languages, including english, have a lot of words taken coming originally from latin. Everything that has more than one syllable...

... not quite. but the point is clear.

plus people talking latin sounds funny


i guess the argument whether we do want a lingua franca at all or not... difficult.
it migth mean to lose some other languages. For example my french sucks brutally today because i've hardly ever used it after having picked it up.

But sometimes i *should* be able to use it :oops:


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Olddog
Post : 12 lip 2007 23:59
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I guess English has become a sort of 'lingua franca' partly because it's always been willing to 'borrow' words from other languages and make it part of 'English as she is used'. Having thought about it for a day or two, I am leaning more to the 'nostalgia' side than 'regret'. Evolution is not only inevitable, but neccesary and what may be lost in old style nuance and style is more than offset by the 'perceptual' gains to be made from being able to communicate with people intelligibly, however, even at a basic level, who come from very different nationalities and hence different experiences and backgrounds. I guess the fact that the three of us from different countries can get together and discuss this on a Polish forum is the good indicator as to the efficacy of the way the language has evolved (although I must say that the two of you have a command of the laguage the rivals my own who has never spoken anything but English (except a little Japaneses) so it seems like you guys are doing the hard yards in this) :diabel:


Ostatnio zmieniony 01 sty 1970 01:00 przez Olddog, łącznie zmieniany 1 raz

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Popers
Post : 13 lip 2007 01:17
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Gość pisze:
English has become a sort of 'lingua franca' partly because it's always been willing to 'borrow' words from other languages


I'd rather say it's a result of British,then American economic and cultural domination. First the British Empire , then the US of A. The power of language is in some way a projection of country's cultural importance. Russian was widely spread in communist countries simply because USSR had a great influence there. When it comes to borrowing elements, other languages do it as well. Slavic <Russian , Polish and so on> ones have flection <nearly nonexistent in English> very similar to Latin.


Cytuj:
Evolution is not only inevitable, but neccesary and what may be lost in old style nuance and style is more than offset by the 'perceptual' gains


yes it's true but I still prefer the traditional style. And it's not only English I'm so orthodox about. I am so pissed off when I hear some Pole distort my native language. Foreigners I can understand - Polish is pretty difficult to learn. And I don't simply mean slang, because every language has to have it's own alternatives within different social groups.It's dangerous mutations threatening the language purity,like English words assimilation, that are so irritating. Call me a whining little bitch if you like but I'll stick to narrow-mindness in this matter . cheers
:D ;)

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Olddog
Post : 13 lip 2007 01:48
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Popers pisze:
I'd rather say it's a result of British,then American economic and cultural domination. First the British Empire , then the US of A. The power of language is in some way a projection of country's cultural importance.


Very true - without the 'Imperial' age English would not have spread so effectively.

As regards traditional style, while I admit that I have similar views (to the point of saying 'vigor' is misspelled), I also have to admit that 'tradition' is a generational thing and that Will Shakespeare would likely scoff at both of us for our diction.


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Popers
Post : 13 lip 2007 03:08
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Olddog pisze:
Will Shakespeare would likely scoff at both of us for our diction

aye, I agree. I once heard how it used to be pronounced in Willie's times. completely incomprehensible....

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Olddog
Post : 13 lip 2007 03:37
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I have this theory (obviously I have too much time on my hands) that the fast pace of change in English, and indeed, other languages, is being patially driven by the rapid expansion of the internet and a sort of freeform contextualisation that comes from people communicating with a general knowledge of a particular language but missing words here and there, and ascribing a meaning to those words based on the context they are used - which may or may not be a close aproximation to the 'real' meaning intended.


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the_Scorpion
Post : 17 lip 2007 11:31
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Kapral
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olddog

i agree. i totally pick up phrases that way, sometimes even if i consider them substandard myself ;-)

in the BP for example, i read "Irregardless" which is unlogical in itself. The author however seems to be using this as a serious word, not for fun or anything

now, some of us non-natives/ badly educated guys pick this crap up and might use it elsewhere.

@Popers

reading your latest posting i'm getting more and more afraid that only reading my "englese" form ja2 rr might cause you enough headache for a lifetime.

now tranlsating it is yet another story :okulary:


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Popers
Post : 18 lip 2007 00:14
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the_Scorpion pisze:
rr might cause you enough headache for a lifetime.


don't worry. You've created a massive amount of text , so I would be surprised if you didn't do any mistakes. Actually, I'm quite impressed. It's a pleasure to work on a well-written material. Well done.

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Popers
Post : 19 lip 2007 22:32
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I just got surprised by a "tri-power carburetor". Took me a while to find out what's this. I'm not an expert when it comes to cars.... :D

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Olddog
Post : 20 lip 2007 02:53
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@Scorpion
Funnily enough 'irregardless' is one of thos words that has nearly made the long trip to valdity - now being listed in most dictionaries and lexicons.
(since I believe it was coined about 1910 thats a century of 'progress' lol).

As for your 'Englese' I think its better than most I hear daily from supposedly literate people who only speak English (or what passes for it among 'young' people these days)
I must be getting old lol

By the way, great work on the pistol animations :)

@Popers
Isnt that a high performance 'hot-rod' kind of part? (I'm not much of a car person either)


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Olddog
Post : 20 lip 2007 02:54
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Haha - finally got it to post - Last 5 times i got a IE fatal error lol


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the_Scorpion
Post : 20 lip 2007 13:05
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Kapral
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Olddog pisze:
@Scorpion
Funnily enough 'irregardless' is one of thos words that has nearly made the long trip to valdity - now being listed in most dictionaries and lexicons.
(since I believe it was coined about 1910 thats a century of 'progress' lol).

As for your 'Englese' I think its better than most I hear daily from supposedly literate people who only speak English (or what passes for it among 'young' people these days)
I must be getting old lol

By the way, great work on the pistol animations :)

@Popers
Isnt that a high performance 'hot-rod' kind of part? (I'm not much of a car person either)


since 1910? when i googled for "irregardless", all of the pages listing it would say "most frequent notion of irregardless": "Such a word doesn't exist" ;-)

a different page said it developed from some dialect...

well, the language of the youth... there's a major difference between the youth and me: i try to speak what i'd consider not substandard but don't achieve it. While youth deliberately uses a languge different from the previous generation's.

thx for the animations feedback. still have one key frame to go in that particuliar animation. it also was a bit simplified.


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Olddog
Post : 02 sie 2007 02:44
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Damn - Good point about youth deliberately seeking to distance themselves from the 'older generation' by way of language. I'm turning into one of those cranky old codgers harping on about 'the good old days' lol

With regards to the animations, I know that there is a vast amount of work involved, but I'm not sure what kind of work - is it graphical or code based? or a mixture of both?


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